An Appreciation of Tommy Roe, Brian Hyland, Tommy James & the Shondells and other primordial examples of bubblegum
by Domenic Priore in conversation with Shelly Kidd

Domenic Priore: We were trying to figure out what separates the British Invasion groups from the '60s Garage Punk bands in America that followed, and when you said "they warped it with Chili Dogs" that pretty much says it all…

Shelly Kidd: Well, because that was part of the pop food of the time. See, you could make a complete study of the era by tying in so many different factors: food, fashion, style and music. It's all inter-related. And that's why even though the British may have been "better" than the American bands, or should we say "more evolved," maybe they could play better, but there's something about the American bands that the Brits will never have, and that's the Corn Dog, Chili Dog, you know, crud culture that we have and they don't. And that's why it became uniquely American. And I'm not gonna compare the Kan Dells "Cry Girl" with "Satisfaction." One is primitive, one is embryonic… "Satisfaction" is primitive, but it's evolved. "Cry Girl" is just, it's almost like in the mud. It's like they're covered in mud, they're so backwards they're in, like, dirt huts. It's unbelievable. There's no Brit band ever who could have done that, you know?

DP: Well this is a good setup to talk about a guy like Tommy Roe…

SK: I have one of those magazines like Hit Parader that did a story on him, and I can see him standing there, and he's wearing kind of an Edwardian suit with Beatle boots. But they were like, Texan-Beatle boots. They were kind of tan-colored, with the webbing on the side, the elastic on the side. He looked really good in it, but his hair was moderately short.

DP: He sort of took up the Buddy Holly mantle…

SK: Definitely. When you listen to "Sheila," he tells the listener "you'll know her if you see her, blue eyes and a pony tail"… just this true love experience with this doll that was probably someone he met at the feed store. It's like he drove his dad's pickup truck down there and he sees her hanging out or something, or somebody he'd meet at a dance, or at a Chili Dog stand in rural Texas. That's kind of the impression you get, what Sheila's about. Sheila might be just a step ahead of Elly Mae Clampett, ya know, just a country gal. Sheila's corn fed; she's ample, dude. She could pack a pair of jeans. She's healthy, but she's by no means fat, she's just right. She's pure, and she's sweet, and she's obviously very much in love with the singer in "Sheila." She's a doll, man, she's like the girl next door. She could be Mary Anne from Gilligan's Island.

DP: And then in '66, Tommy Roe came up with "Sweet Pea." I just remember one ride to the beach with my sister and all her friends loaded in the car, and everyone sort of just dancing around in their seats, just losin' it over that one… like they could get really crazy and silly over that one for some reason.

SK: "Sweet Pea" and "Sheila" are probably the same chick, but "Sweet Pea" might be a little more evolved. She's at dances… "Sheila" kind of gives me the impression that she doesn't wear shoes too much. "Sweet Pea" is like, at a dance, she could be a debutante. Everybody there wants to dance with "Sweet Pea." Unbelievable…"Sweet Pea"… who could come up with that? Come on! That's also something that could never come out of England, they're too polished. They're hundreds of years old. We're brand new. We're totally still in the dirt, in contrast to the Grand British Empire.

DP: But "Sweet Pea" also has other elements to it; for example, there's something about that organ…

SK: Sure, it's a reedy, cheese, crying organ… it's almost evocative, it's almost holy, because it has that kind of church quality to it. Like there's something so wonderful about "Sweet Pea," like she's almost an object of worship.

DP: But then it almost has that, very, kind of like, teetering feeling to it as well, like it's warped… like it might go out of tune in a second, ya know?

SK: Yeah, well, that's the calliope part… like being on a boardwalk, or having a circus calliope. It's held together by gum and spit, or something…

DP: Or maybe some butter on the popcorn…

SK: It's all cut from the same cloth. "Dizzy" and "Hooray for Hazel" are incredible…

DP: "Hooray for Hazel" has those great lyrics… "She's selfish and she's spoiled and she knows that she's cute," but then there's the comeuppance when nobody actually digs her after all… "She's beggin' for love." He also did "Jam Up and Jelly Tight"…

SK: …Which is later. I wasn't a big fan of that, so I really don't want to talk about that. It's already a departure. All these Tommy Roe songs kind of have this sound to it, some kind of wailing, or moaning in the background… inbetween breaks and verses.

DP: …Plus, the organ on "Sweet Pea" has a wailing quality to it. And "Sheila" has those "aahhhhs" that echo the melody of the verse.

SK: There is a bittersweet quality to all these things. That could have its roots somewhere in Ireland. That's Celtic, that found its way to the plains with the migrations.

DP: Well, Country & Western is based in Celtic music…But "Sheila" is kind of like the archetypal bubblegum record too.

SK: Well, it's one of them. There's "Sugar Shack" (by Jimmy Gilmer with the Fireballs)… they walk this line between being… they're bubblegummy in a certain sense, but they rock a little too hard for bubblegum. Like "Sugar Shack," that's a real kick-ass song. They're all a little bit goofy, and there's a lighthearted quality to them, and there's a feel-good quality. Like, "Paint It Black" doesn't really make you feel good… you feel cool, and great, but you've kind of been through an ordeal. It's heavy when you hear "Paint It Black." But you don't really get that way, you feel light and airy when you hear something like "Sheila" or "Sweet Pea" or "Sugar Shack."

DP: And songs like "Cherry Hill Park" by Billy Joe Royal…

SK: Yeah, that's a neat song. Well written.

DP: Then there's the Jamies doin' "Summertime Summertime"…

SK: (laughs) That might be the archetypal bubblegum record.

DP: Corny pop…

SK: Yeah, that's amazing. You won't beat that. I don't even know where that fits in with the rock 'n' roll scheme… do you remember even any drums on that?

DP: Not really…

SK: Totally acapella. It sounds like a wind-up toy that they're playing. Like, you ever wind up a jack-in-the-box? (Hums "Pop Goes the Weasel" melody) There's kind of like a toy piano sound for the Jamies (giggles, laughs.) The thing is, they were serious about doing this, so, how natural can that be? It also makes me feel very small in contrast. These guys wrote it out of their unconscious. Who knows how they did it? I sure don't. The only thing I can do is look back at somebody like that and try and like, write, but I have to make a conscious effort to do it, to try and sound like something. These guys just did it. They heard whatever they heard and they just wrote this stuff. Who knows how you write something like "Summertime Summertime."

DP: Then there's stuff like "The Joker Went Wild" by Brian Hyland…

SK: That's great pop too. It sounds like a cartoon… it sounds like it was written for kids…

DP: There's something sick about that one… the tone, and the way that tinny guitar follows each little bit of the verse.

SK: Some songs have a warped quality to them.

DP: Even though that song was earlier, when I'd hear it on the radio in '66, it would make me think of Caesar Romero throwing a flipout on Batman…

SK: And then Brian Hyland did "Sealed with a Kiss" too…

DP: Then there's Tommy James & the Shondells, who are like the ultimate summation of everything.

SK: Yeah. People don't know too much about them. They really ran a lot of different sounds, they could do punk really well too. I think "Hanky Panky" is fucking amazing for punk… pop punk. See, they were like the Raiders, in the sense that they could meld punk and pop together, which the Raiders were genius at doing. When you hear "Hanky Panky," it really has both those elements. It's like some drunken brawl going on. They're totally out of it, and it's so simple, but it's so satisfying.

DP: And with a very tough, surf guitar background… it was recorded in '64 but wasn't a hit until '66.

SK: Sure, it was early. I remember reading an article about the Shondells. The article was real early, from the time it was a hit. And they were almost apologizing for "Hanky Panky" (laughs.) It was already thought of as being cruddy. Its like they were saying "Well, we don't want people to think that this is what we sound like, or that this is the only thing we can do." Its like they were almost embarrassed that it was such a primitive stomp. "My baby does the Hanky Panky." (Laughs) It's trash, but its so lowdown, it's wonderful. The other thing is, there's a song they did called "Say I Am." "Say I Am" is really grungy too. There's a lot of grunts in it. You wouldn't know it was them, unless you knew it was them. "Say I Am" by Tommy James & the Shondells.

DP: Then we move into the more pop stuff like "I Think We're Alone Now."

SK: There's a great deal of teen angst there.

DP: In that situation, you have to sneak away. "Let's run, lets run, let's go" and your hearts are beating real fast…

SK:…But there's a level of wonderful excitement there too. See, ‘cause you're kind of worried about getting caught. It's pretty neat. But I think their best entry for that is "Mirage."

DP: Why do you think that one's so great?

SK: It's the total carnival sound. It's again, about that unrequited love. The guy is totally tortured because he keeps seeing this chick around the alleys and the hallways… and then it comes back to him, all the attraction that they had, but he's not havin' it anymore. It's brutally painful, because he's still longing for this chick, but he manages to extricate himself from the situation. He finally manages to raise his head up, and he can see that she's just a mirage. It's brilliant, and the imagery that goes along with it is really profound. Any good instrumentation will amplify the feeling that’s conveyed through the lyric. The sound of the organ, as the lead instrument, has a longing quality to it, or remorse, and regret. It's like they go together; the music matches the sentiment. The emotion is conveyed through the organ. And that's what any good music will do, regardless of what type of music it is. It's where the instrument can convey the emotion and feelings, and that's what you have in Tommy Roe (hums riff of "Sweet Pea") C'mon, man, can you think of a simpler riff? Its such a simple riff, musically, but first of all, you've got to be a fuckin' genius to think it up. It's like that commercial by Mennen… (Sings) "Buy, Mennen." It’s brilliant. But it's three notes. You know, they had a whole Seinfeld based on that. So the same thing (hums "Sweet Pea" riff,) what's that, eight notes? It's like a baby could play it, but you've got to have some sort of warped genius to think it up, and put a song around it. Again, the organ is conveying the feeling. It's lighthearted. But there's an element of anguish there too. Because he wants to dance with Sweet Pea and he wants to tell Sweet Pea that he loves her.

DP: Wow.

SK: Like "Sheila." That's a real Buddy Holly-sounding tune. Buddy Holly was a master at that too, by the way. He could write stuff that could convey the emotion through the music, and that's a point that can not be overstated. The ambient quality of "Sheila" is that you can feel Sheila in the music, and you can feel the excitement of the couple, of Sheila and Sheila's boyfriend… "We're so doggone happy just bein' around together, man, this little girl is fine." That's the incredible part about it. It's so pure, and it's conveyed musically as well as lyrically.

DP: When you think of something like "1,2,3, Red Light" or "Simple Simon Says," I mean, that's pure pop. But it has a magical quality that almost disappeared after about 1970 for some strange reason, I don't know why. 'Cause certainly there's been pop since then, but it all stunk. Just reeked, it was awful. There was a certain magical quality that they had, or maybe these were gifted writers and they could crank this stuff out. Because you can draw the parallel between "Summertime Summertime" by the Jamies and the 1910 Fruitgum Company. It's all there, for the discerning listener.